First NUIGROUP Meeting

thatsyouremail> morning, is the meeting still on today?
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<therion> :p
<thatsyouremail> hi
<therion> hey
<therion> am i too soon or too late? :p
<thatsyouremail> too soon
<thatsyouremail> it is going to start 12:00PM PST
<therion> how many hours?
<thatsyouremail> about 3:00 PM EST
<thatsyouremail> so 3hrs 30min till the start
<thatsyouremail> I think
<therion> im GMT+1
<therion> okay =)
<therion> wont be able to make it then :/
<thatsyouremail> oh
<thatsyouremail> sorry
<thatsyouremail> there will be a transcript in the forum afterwords
<therion> yup
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<Justin_> about an hour left to go time
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<Justin_> 10 mins left
<Bushman> make it 9
<Bushman> :D
<Justin_> lol
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<thatsyouremail> 5 mins
<Justin_> Software keyboards and how to make them a lot better then they currently are……………………………………………………2 mins
<Bushman> feedback!
<Bushman> mechanical feedback :P
<thatsyouremail> too expensive
<rbedi100> http://www.shapewriter.com/software.html
<Justin_> ok
<rbedi100> iphone/itouch app…new input mechanism
<Bushman> that would be cool to have multitouch surface with mechanical feedback
<Bushman> :P
<thatsyouremail> yah, but it is still kinda hard to do on a large scale
<Justin_> My idea is simple
<Bushman> but that’s just a thought, ignore me :P
<thatsyouremail> ok, Justin_
<Justin_> we use a on screen keyboard
<Taha> Hi all
<Justin_> that only opens when you need it
<jimihertz> hi there!
<Justin_> ie…
<Justin_> you want to fill out a form online
<Justin_> it just pops up
<thatsyouremail> ok, that works
<Justin_> you want to write a post on your blog it just pops up
<thatsyouremail> so it would be similar to the iPhone/iTouch
<Justin_> before you type anything
<Justin_> you get a chance to resize it
<Justin_> you can save your size ect.. in a confic.xml file
<thatsyouremail> a chance, or how about someting like resizing corners
<Justin_> so you can just use it the next time
<Justin_> yeah whatever
<thatsyouremail> ok, cool
<jimihertz> y should we reproduce a keyboard , keyboards should desappear, writing recognition as well as gesture is more a way to go ,
<Justin_> but the idea that we still need a real keyboard is out
<Justin_> thats cool too
<Justin_> but no real keyboard anymore
<jimihertz> what for ? if you need to write , write with a pencil on the table
<Justin_> if we can reinvent the computer w/ multi touch we should do the same for the keyboard
<Justin_> NICE IDEA
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<Justin_> a IR pen
<Justin_> like johny lee wii
<Bushman> hmm…
<Justin_> so we need writing recognition
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<Justin_> ok here comes everyone
<Justin_> should i post what everone missed some were so that u all can catch up?
<Bushman> they’ll catch up
<Bushman> they’ll catch up anyway
<Bushman> so wee need some hand writing recognition engine
<Justin_> here it is anyway http://pastebin.com/d7d6bbdb1
<Justin_> yeah that would be cool
<Justin_> just write like you would on paper
<Justin_> hmm……..
<Bushman> question: is there any decent open source engine avilable?
<AdmiralYOUDEE> why not use the ink engines from touchscreens?
<AdmiralYOUDEE> like the tablet pc ink recognizer
<AdmiralYOUDEE> not to say its that good…but its there and works
<Justin_> I rember see some thing at christmas some pen i think it was called flypaper
<Bushman> AdmiralYOUDEE: more info plox
<Justin_> you could write on the wall your desk whatever and when you hooked it up to you compuet it would spit out the text
<Bushman> oh
<AdmiralYOUDEE> well in .net u can get to it from like
<Bushman> nice
<Justin_> i wonder if we could get a hold of one and is how it works
<AdmiralYOUDEE> System.Windows.Ink.InkAnalyzer
<Justin_> cool
<Bushman> that requires external hardware
<AdmiralYOUDEE> what does?
<Bushman> while IR pens can just be IR mirror on the tip of a pencil
<Bushman> AdmiralYOUDEE: this ink stuff
<AdmiralYOUDEE> er
<AdmiralYOUDEE> the tablet pc ink doesnt
<Bushman> isn’t it some kind of digital pen that captures the motion of the hand?
<AdmiralYOUDEE> no
<Justin_> flypaper is
<Bushman> aaaaaa
<AdmiralYOUDEE> oh the stuff hes talking about
<thatsyouremail> how about using a finger, especially for those of us that are using FTIR
<AdmiralYOUDEE> IR pen could work with FTIR
<AdmiralYOUDEE> if it had an IR led in it
<Justin_> http://www.toywiz.com/flypen.html
<thatsyouremail> ok, i see
<Justin_> if it had a led in it it would work on all 3 ftir di llp
<Bushman> AdmiralYOUDEE: it can work even without IR led if the sensivity is reasonably hi
<AdmiralYOUDEE> sure
<thatsyouremail> ok
<Justin_> but what we need is some way of text input..pen,finger,onscreen keyboard
<Justin_> we need to use the best fit for all set ups
<Justin_> no real mouse no real keyboard anymore
<Justin_> keep this in mind
<Justin_> even the pen is a pice of hardware you need to have and that can be lost very easily
<Justin_> I think we are on the right track but this is something that needs to be thought through
<AdmiralYOUDEE> http://www.infraredpens.com/
<Justin_> I have built my own
<Justin_> but that should work too
<Fairlane> Hey guys, just catching up on the conversation.
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<Justin_> but if your like me you will lose it
<AdmiralYOUDEE> u should be able to use ur finger tho
<AdmiralYOUDEE> if ur screen is big enough
<rbedi100> how about an infrared finger cover-sort of like an infrared thimble?
<Justin_> ok thats a good idea
<Justin_> lol nice
<Justin_> fairlane http://pastebin.com/m3ca9f36
<AdmiralYOUDEE> er
<AdmiralYOUDEE> whats wrong with just ur finger?
<rbedi100> true…. :)
<rbedi100> makes the recognition even better i guess
<Fairlane> Yeah thanks Justin..
<Justin_> now how good is the software we all have different writing ways
<Bushman> i have an old Handspring Viso
<Bushman> *Visor
<Justin_> it cool man
<jimihertz> http://lipitk.sourceforge.net/
<Bushman> it has hand recognition system
<jimihertz> Lipi Toolkit (LipiTk) is an open source toolkit for online Handwriting Recognition (HWR
<Justin_> and its open sorce
<Justin_> nice find
<Bushman> i think that it’s not the point to recognize the handwriten text,
<Justin_> we need something that can read from multable users
<Justin_> because if this software is good we need it to be good for 2 or more people
<Bushman> ok
<AdmiralYOUDEE> shouldnt be dififcult
<Bushman> do you know who Palm done that?
<AdmiralYOUDEE> grab strokes in an area
<AdmiralYOUDEE> and combine them
<Bushman> like 2 regions to write
<Justin_> maybe you can draw a box were your working and then the next person can do the same
<Fairlane> I like that
<Bushman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_(Palm_OS)
<Justin_> :)
<Bushman> the input box can be draged out from the text field
<Justin_> cool
<Bushman> if you see text field, you touch it and drag&drop the input box
<Bushman> that way it’s always focused on “the right” text field
<Fairlane> I like that too :-)
<Justin_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Perlin he has one too it said
<Bushman> one what>
<Bushman> ?
<Justin_> http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/demos/quikwriting.html
<Bushman> well the input itself is to be chosen later
<Justin_> yeah this demo is a little weak
<Bushman> i mean the wayhow you input character
<Justin_> yeah
<rbedi100> the emulator is interesting but its not clear
<Justin_> right
<Justin_> anyway the idea of a real keyboard is out i hope
<Bushman> yea
<rbedi100> did u check this out? http://www.shapewriter.com/software.html
<Justin_> unless it’s a on screen one…………..shit
<rbedi100> it uses a regular keyboard onscreen but it has a different input mechanism
<Justin_> i just thought what if you have a upright set up
<Bushman> if it goes for that other method… i think palm’s graffiti is better
<Bushman> more intuitive, you just have to learn slight diferences
<Justin_> on screen keyboard will be hard to use
<Justin_> well it would hurt your writs after a while
<Justin_> the pen would be better
<Justin_> for both
<rbedi100> but when you’re using a pen, your wrist sits on the table
<rbedi100> could that be a problem?
<Justin_> good question
<Justin_> yes it could if your rig is sensitive
<Bushman> why can’t you use finger as if that was a pen?
<Justin_> i guess we might have too
<Justin_> see this brainstorming is helping
<Fairlane> correct and save a lot of people losing pens
<rbedi100> but even with finger, if you are writing something relatively long (10+ words), your wrist would still want to go down
<thatsyouremail> but what about character recognition?
<Justin_> the only down fall is handicap people
<AdmiralYOUDEE> er
<Justin_> what about a mind reader that can sence your words
<AdmiralYOUDEE> u could use a diff wavelength for the pen
<Fairlane> hehe
<rbedi100> they actually have something like that justin
<rbedi100> u can draw a circle
<AdmiralYOUDEE> and have a 2nd camera doing handwriting recognition
<rbedi100> a bad circle
<Justin_> like the stuff there building for games and such?
<AdmiralYOUDEE> with a bandpass filter
<rbedi100> but a circle nonetheless with just ur mind
<Justin_> i know
<Justin_> i just remmbered that
<Justin_> u know that would be the shit and a real selling point
<Fairlane> nice
<Justin_> be totally lazy
<Justin_> i don’t need a keyboard or mouse and my computer reads my mind
<Justin_> lol :P
<Fairlane> hehe
<rbedi100> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/brain.html
<thatsyouremail> I really think that a standard keyboard is still a better option for long entries
<Justin_> that would work for more then one person at a time i bet
<Justin_> on screen
<Justin_> i want to set up systems on a big scale and don’t want keyboards laying around
<rbedi100> self-completing words would be good
<Justin_> if it is on screen i have no major problem w/ that
<Justin_> it is too easy to rely on the past
<Justin_> we need to move forward not backwards
<Justin_> BrainGate is cool
<Justin_> i also say a youtube video w/ a monkey at Duke U
<Justin_> doing something like that
<Fairlane> yeah I think so..
<rbedi100> have you seen keyboard gloves?
<thatsyouremail> those are interesting
<thatsyouremail> but they require a comprehensice knowledge of touch typing
<rbedi100> right….
<Fairlane> For more brain interaction… http://www.neurosky.com/menu/main/home/
<rbedi100> nice
<Fairlane> see even Yoda can use the multitouch screen :-p
<Justin_> lol
<Justin_> wow thats kool
<Fairlane> yeah and steering away from the implant side…
<thatsyouremail> i think that trying to completely re-design the keyboard, is the wrong aproach here. I think that we need a hybrid style of text input, like the original Palm Pilots
<thatsyouremail> you can use handwriting recognition for short notes, but select the keyboard option for longer inputs
<Justin_> i think the brain stuff is a winner in my book w/ out the implants
<rbedi100> i personally like the gestures to enter palm os graffiti….intuitive.
<thatsyouremail> i think that would work better, because people know how to do all that already
<Justin_> good point
<Fairlane> true
<Bushman> did i missed anything?
<thatsyouremail> but the keyboard shuld be able to be resized and otherwise setup to be able to made more “ergonomic”
<Bushman> palm os has on-screen keyboard too
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<Bushman> so i think we should use this aproach
<thatsyouremail> ok
<rbedi100_> stupid internet spasm.
<thatsyouremail> lol
<Fairlane> hehe
<rbedi100_> and it wont give me my old nickname
<Bushman> in the corners of the input box we can place icons of ‘abc’ ‘123′ ‘!?+’
<thatsyouremail> ok
<thatsyouremail> that totally works
<rbedi100_> i actually prefer hitting double spacebar rather than devoting a whole key for a period on the iphone
<Justin_> sounds good to me
<Bushman> that icons can bring up the keyboard
<Bushman> alphanumeric or just numbers
<Justin_> be back in a min
<thatsyouremail> and the numbers shuld be shaped like a 10key pad
<Bushman> or even symbols if you don’t remember the graffiti
<thatsyouremail> ok
<Bushman> btw, there is a shortcut for grafity layout
<Bushman> -> /G
<rbedi100_> qwerty, dvorak, or customizable?
<Bushman> just make a diagonal line form left bottom to top right
<thatsyouremail> the keyboard type shuld be fully custimizable
<Bushman> rbedi100_: by “layout” i mean how they look
<Bushman> the gestures
<Fairlane> cool
<rbedi100_> ah ok
<Bushman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Palm_Graffiti_gestures.png
<thatsyouremail> there shuld be an option menu to set the keyboard layout(s)
<rbedi100_> thats version 1 right?
<Bushman> i use the /G gesture a lot when i try to write punctations :D
<Bushman> cause i always forget them
<Bushman> but if you’ll use it on everyday basis you’ll learn it very fasrt
<Bushman> just like you learn where the keys are on the phisical keyboard
<thatsyouremail> that works
<Justin_> back
<Justin_> that sounds good to me
<Justin_> so gestures r the way?
<Bushman> yup
<Bushman> that’s what i think
<Justin_> nice
<Bushman> it’s no use to ram open doors
<Fairlane> it’s the most standard for the everyday person too.
<Bushman> ppl were working on it many days
<Bushman> besides when you’ll get used to you can write faster that normal hand writing
<Bushman> the gestures are simplified
<Bushman> A looks like inverted V
<rbedi100_> dont have to pick up finger/pen…
<Bushman> rbedi100_: yea, that tooo
<jimihertz> http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix03/tech/freenix03/full_papers/worth/worth_html/xstroke.html
<Fairlane> that’s cool
<Justin_> ok
<rbedi100_> good info on how to differ one gesture from another based on grid
<jimihertz> check the gesture set and the customization part (below on the documention page )
<Fairlane> I like the Full-screen gesture recognition
<thatsyouremail> same here
<Fairlane> that way the user is not defined to a particular area.
<Fairlane> resolves the problem with sore wrists etc. if you can constantly change input area
<rbedi100_> ok folks, gtg…bbl
<thatsyouremail> bye
<Fairlane> yeah me too. it’s like 6am here and I have to get some sleep!
<Fairlane> Great topic guys, looking forward to reading more!
<Justin_> later
<thatsyouremail> k
<Bushman> but full screen will cause confusion
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<Bushman> you have to asign the input to a specific text area without disabling other users input
<thatsyouremail> mmmh
<Bushman> that’s why i said about Palm OS input method
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<Justin_> i need to run and do something real quick bbs
<AdmiralYOUDEE> well
<AdmiralYOUDEE> u could have an input area related to each field
<AdmiralYOUDEE> that pops up when its focused
<thatsyouremail> that works, and it would make it simple to know where you are inputting text
<jimihertz> you mean, like a gesture to popup text hanwriting scalable area ?
<Bushman> AdmiralYOUDEE: that’s what i said before
<Bushman> if you need to input into some text area you just touch it, that pops up the input box wich you can Drag&Drop anywhere you want
<Bushman> but it’s still asigned to the specific text area
<Bushman> and there can be some sort of “done” button on it
<Bushman> who’s still alive?
<Bushman> is it me or everyone went to sleep alredy?
<Justin_> I guess this meeting is over
<Justin_> should we call it?
<Bushman> :/
<Bushman> if no one wants to think any more
<Bushman> Justin_: i think we have to sum it up in short
<Justin_> ok
<Bushman> i’d say “let’s use Graffiti ™ + pop-up input box with static focus”
<Bushman> i can make drawings how do i see it later
<Justin_> sounds good to me
<Justin_> im all for it
<Bushman> that’ll take time cause i suck at drawing :D
<Justin_> you do the rough draf and I will make it look good
<Justin_> im an artist
<Justin_> is that a deal?
<jimihertz> how to use grafitti ?
<Bushman> Justin_: as long as we’r both in the credits list :D
<Justin_> it’s all good
<Bushman> jimihertz: you mean the input method?
<Bushman> jimihertz: you just write with your hand
<jimihertz> no, i mean the programation part
<Bushman> that’ll require some research
<Bushman> someone has shown it here
<Bushman> guess what, it was you! :D
<Bushman> http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix03/tech/freenix03/full_papers/worth/worth_html/xstroke.html
<jimihertz> ok , i thought you was already ahead , P
<Justin_> so is this meeting over for now?
<thatsyouremail> i guess
<Justin_> ok it’s a wrap…………………………………………………….
<jimihertz> ok, so keep in *touch
<thatsyouremail> ok
<thatsyouremail> Justin_: do you have the transcript or do I
<Justin_> you can I have everything from the start
<Bushman> Justin_: i’ll make drawings and drop it on #nuigroup
<Justin_> sounds good I’ll post a transcript on my blog and let xelapond post it were he wants
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